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let me ask you about the law that the state party filed this complaint with the secretary of state. what is the legal requirement now by the secretary of state's office? what kind of -- does it get moved to criminal action or is this sort of a state ethics investigation? >> i think at this stage, chuck, it's probably a state ethics investigation. the secretary of state's office will certainly look into it, try to make a fair determination of what's really going on here. but i think bigger picture is what the legislature has done here in florida and other states as it relates to early voting and voter suppression if you will. that's really the big problem we're facing coming up on this presidential election in just 30 or so days and it's effecting not only early voting in the early voting hours, but it's also affected voting by mail. what i mean by that is the only way somebody can validate who they are when they vote by mail and send that ballot in is by the signature that they utilize and making sure that that signature they sign matches the one at the supervisor of election office
let me ask you about the law that the state party filed this complaint with the secretary of state. what is the legal requirement now by the secretary of state's office? what kind of -- does it get moved to criminal action or is this sort of a state ethics investigation? >> i think at this stage, chuck, it's probably a state ethics investigation. the secretary of state's office will certainly look into it, try to make a fair determination of what's really going on here. but i think bigger...
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more recently allegations relating to an electoral scheme in arizona to allegedly violate election laws by running an independent expenditure campaign on behalf of an attorney general candidate there. i should point out that there have been no charges filed against mr. sproul or any of his companies, but they were concerned enough so that when sproul got hired in just this past june, he acknowledges that he set up a separate company under this name, strategic allied consulting, so that it wouldn't trace back to the other names that he's operated under, lincoln strategy group is the main one, and so it was clear that they were concerned, both he and the rnc, and he says, sproul told me that he did this at the request of the rnc. so there was clearly concern on both parties' part that some of these past controversies would get some attention if it was known that he was conducting this very major nationwide battleground registration effort on behalf of the rnc. >> because the rnc spends something like $3 million, they were operating in seven swing states. how wide do you expect this invest
more recently allegations relating to an electoral scheme in arizona to allegedly violate election laws by running an independent expenditure campaign on behalf of an attorney general candidate there. i should point out that there have been no charges filed against mr. sproul or any of his companies, but they were concerned enough so that when sproul got hired in just this past june, he acknowledges that he set up a separate company under this name, strategic allied consulting, so that it...
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Oct 7, 2012
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you might callt deficit and health care law but you get it when it's a joke and something's funny. if there's a seed of truth and real information, you'll remember that. >> truth, realness. the way people actually talk to each other instead of talking points. so dean, we're talking about our conversation at the top of the show, the wisconsin news anchor and the guy who wrote in, talking about weight. people saying i disagree with your guest, overeating is an addiction, that's why most people in this country are overweight. and we're only coddling people by telling them that it's a thyroid problem, it's this or that. you have to eat properly, it's about making healthy choices. >> i think it's certainly about making healthy choices. i have an addiction to food, i eat every day. it's a question of how much i eat. my mom had great issues with weight. went to weight watchers and many organizes growing up. i was firsthand seeing the struggle. i was a chubby kid and she forced me to eat better. it wasn't until my father passed away from diabetes and health complications that she lost the
you might callt deficit and health care law but you get it when it's a joke and something's funny. if there's a seed of truth and real information, you'll remember that. >> truth, realness. the way people actually talk to each other instead of talking points. so dean, we're talking about our conversation at the top of the show, the wisconsin news anchor and the guy who wrote in, talking about weight. people saying i disagree with your guest, overeating is an addiction, that's why most...
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graham says the law is clear and sequestration is reality for now. >> that's an absurd interpretation. of course you can change any statute, but until it's changed, it has to be complied with. and right now there is no agreement in the congress with the white house. >> senator john mccain estimates the price tag if sequestration happens and the pentagon needs to reimburse contractors for severance cost could be $4 billion. in a letter to defense secretary leon panetta, mccain says he plans to deny any transfer of money that could have been avoided by complying with the law. brett? >> bret: stay on it. thank you. brick shipyard workers clashed with police after they forced their way into the defense ministry compound. more austerity protest elsewhere in athens. rallies against proposals that would cut salaries and personnel. >>> one world leader plans on turning 60 in style. you simply will not believe al gore's excuse for president obama's performance at the debate. grapevine is next >> bret: now some fresh pickings from the political grapevine. we've looked at the presidential debate
graham says the law is clear and sequestration is reality for now. >> that's an absurd interpretation. of course you can change any statute, but until it's changed, it has to be complied with. and right now there is no agreement in the congress with the white house. >> senator john mccain estimates the price tag if sequestration happens and the pentagon needs to reimburse contractors for severance cost could be $4 billion. in a letter to defense secretary leon panetta, mccain says...
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committees are going back to look at to see if congress was -- which would be a vigs violation of the law. i'm not involved with that. they're going to have to fully go to the end of that. i would be careful about accusing anybody, but clearly, there were huge mistakes made here and huge i argue foreign policy mistakes were compounded by the original decision they weren't going to use the information that the intelligence community was giving them. i think it's a dangerous decision. i think we're seeing that now and we're going to pay a price for this. >> have you been told you're going to get all of the cables, anything in prior months in and years to this, that this was coming, especially in the two or three months before? >> we've requested the documents. they have yet to arrive. the cooperation is not what we had hoped. i just hope we don't have to ramp this up. we should do this as an internal investigation so that we can move forward and make sure that the other embassies of the world that we don't not let al-qaeda off the hook on this and i tell you, again, that 9/11 commission was
committees are going back to look at to see if congress was -- which would be a vigs violation of the law. i'm not involved with that. they're going to have to fully go to the end of that. i would be careful about accusing anybody, but clearly, there were huge mistakes made here and huge i argue foreign policy mistakes were compounded by the original decision they weren't going to use the information that the intelligence community was giving them. i think it's a dangerous decision. i think...
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now that he's voted to uphold this law, would you still knowing what we know now, nominate a justice like john roberts? >> well, i certainly wouldn't nominate someone who i knew was going to come out with a decision that i rehemently disagreed with. >> joining me now is jeffrey toobin. voting for the united states senator is the number one reason to vote for them since they confirm these nominations. i just want to show you a moment that just occurred in the massachusetts senate debate tonight between scott brown and elizabeth warren. let's listen to that. >> who's your model supreme court justice? >> let me see here. that's a great question. i think justice scalia is a very good judge. justice kennedy. the i think they're very qualified people there. >> >> miss warren who would be your model supreme court justice. >> i think it would probably be elena kagan. >> jeff toobin, it seemed elizabeth warren got that right the first time. we saw scott brown move from left to right. >> it looked like he was sort of randomly picking names out of the sky. the justices who had absolutely nothin
now that he's voted to uphold this law, would you still knowing what we know now, nominate a justice like john roberts? >> well, i certainly wouldn't nominate someone who i knew was going to come out with a decision that i rehemently disagreed with. >> joining me now is jeffrey toobin. voting for the united states senator is the number one reason to vote for them since they confirm these nominations. i just want to show you a moment that just occurred in the massachusetts senate...
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Oct 2, 2012
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law. if a judge decides the state has hasn't adequately assisted in getting the identification, he can block the law from being imposed. the judge could leave the law in effect but let voters cast a provisional ballot. >>> jerry brown signed new legislation to let immigrants get driver's license. it covers immigrants who came to the u.s. before they were 16 and meet criteria to apply for a federal work permit program. >>> speaking of those young folks, when asked about the same workers, mitt romney said he would honor their temporary visas and allow the workers to say in the u.s. if he becomes president. this of course, is that executive order that the president signed. mitt romney had not said whether he was going to keep that order in place or rescind it. he says now, you can keep it in place. >>> one border patrol agent has been killed in a shooting near the mexico/arizona border. we're following that story. we'll get you more updates as we get them. >>> in today's deep dive, president
law. if a judge decides the state has hasn't adequately assisted in getting the identification, he can block the law from being imposed. the judge could leave the law in effect but let voters cast a provisional ballot. >>> jerry brown signed new legislation to let immigrants get driver's license. it covers immigrants who came to the u.s. before they were 16 and meet criteria to apply for a federal work permit program. >>> speaking of those young folks, when asked about the...
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and it is clearly a violation of international law. but i think seen from a strategic point of view both russia and china should have a self-interest in being so to speak on the right side of history. and i think that could be an argument for them in favor of delivering a clear and unified and strong message from the international community. >> rose: do you think it's a stalemate today? >> more or less it is a stalemate. with severe consequences for the people of syria. and i think the international community has a responsibility to deliver a very clear message to the assad regime that they must stop violence and initiate a process towards democracy in syria. no regime can in the long-term neglect the will of the people. >> rose: when you look at the balkans, we had an intervention without a u.n. resolution. nato acted without a u.n. resolution. can you imagine that happening in syria? >> testimony brief answer is no, but let me stress that nato acted on the basic of the principles of the u.n. charter when we took responsibility for th
and it is clearly a violation of international law. but i think seen from a strategic point of view both russia and china should have a self-interest in being so to speak on the right side of history. and i think that could be an argument for them in favor of delivering a clear and unified and strong message from the international community. >> rose: do you think it's a stalemate today? >> more or less it is a stalemate. with severe consequences for the people of syria. and i think...
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. >> he's not trying to move the law radically, quickly. i think justice scalia or justice thomas really want to get to the end answer as quickly as possible and make the law conform to what they really understand whereas the chief justice is more incrementalist. >> reporter: conservative court watcher carry severino doesn't believe much will change any time soon. >> certainly this is not a crusading con serbtive court. until we have a shift, i think, in the membership of the court it's impossible to call it a court that leans more to the left or to the right. >> let's bring in joe johns. joe, could this term possibly be as important as the last one? that's hard to imagine. >> reporter: carol, it certainly has that potential. just the question of revisiting race based preferences in university admissions. this is an issue they decided just a few years ago. now they're back. the difference is the court's been reconstituted. now the swing vote is no longer one justice. it's another justice. there are other issues certainly that could be big.
. >> he's not trying to move the law radically, quickly. i think justice scalia or justice thomas really want to get to the end answer as quickly as possible and make the law conform to what they really understand whereas the chief justice is more incrementalist. >> reporter: conservative court watcher carry severino doesn't believe much will change any time soon. >> certainly this is not a crusading con serbtive court. until we have a shift, i think, in the membership of the...
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. >> i never used it for college, for law school, or to get a job. >> senator scott brown on defense trying to back up his manufactured native american controversy. brown and democratic opponent elizabeth warren just finished their second debate for brown's senate seat. it was front and center in the debate. but brown also had a tough time standing by mitt romney's economic plan. >> you support governor romney for president, i assume. >> as i said, when it comes to dealing with the economic issues, absolutely. but we're two different people. >> you would be a reliable ally when it came to his economic plan? on his economic plan, you said there's nobody better. >> i would also like to read the bills. a lot of people don't read the bills down there. >> meanwhile, a new set of polls show this race is close. polling from mass i think has it close. 18% of massachusetts voters are still undecided. and that means senator brown's seat is still up for grabs. for more on this tonight, let's turn to felix arroyo. you were at the first debate and of course, at this one again tonight. watched thi
. >> i never used it for college, for law school, or to get a job. >> senator scott brown on defense trying to back up his manufactured native american controversy. brown and democratic opponent elizabeth warren just finished their second debate for brown's senate seat. it was front and center in the debate. but brown also had a tough time standing by mitt romney's economic plan. >> you support governor romney for president, i assume. >> as i said, when it comes to...
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law from taking effect this november, the same law that won top state republican said would help mitt romney win pennsylvania. most republicans usually don't admit as much, prefrg to frame their efforts around, quote, preventing voter fraud. but in a twist it appears that republicans may be the ones responsible for all the suspicious activity this year. last week the rnc fired a group called strategic allied consulting after accused of submitting fraudulent voter registration forms. if the republican party was shocked, perhaps it shouldn't have been. the firm is owned by a gop operative named nathan stroul sproul whose voter activities were investigated by the justice department though no charges filed. in a sign of people who want to legitimately exercise their right to vote, voters in ohio slept on the street overnight to be the first to cast their ballots when early voting began this morning in that state. joining us now is the host of politics nation, here on msnbc, the one, the only, reverend al sharpton. great to see you. >> glad to be here. >> let's talk about the pennsylvania
law from taking effect this november, the same law that won top state republican said would help mitt romney win pennsylvania. most republicans usually don't admit as much, prefrg to frame their efforts around, quote, preventing voter fraud. but in a twist it appears that republicans may be the ones responsible for all the suspicious activity this year. last week the rnc fired a group called strategic allied consulting after accused of submitting fraudulent voter registration forms. if the...
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it's law that just makes sense. humans -- sometimes life trips us up. and sometimes, we trip ourselves up, but that's okay. at liberty mutual insurance we can "untrip" you as you go through your life with personalized policies and discounts when you need them most. just call... and speak with a licensed representative about saving on your policy when you get married, move into a new house... [crash!] or add a car to your policy. don't forget to ask about saving up to 10% when you combine your auto and home insurance with liberty mutual. security, coverage, and savings. all the things humans need to make our beautifully imperfect world a little less imperfect. call... and lock in your rate for 12 months. liberty mutual insurance. responsibility. what's your policy? for the spender who needs a little help saving. for adding "& sons." for the dreamer, planning an early escape. for the mother of the bride. for whoever you are, for whatever you're trying to achieve, pnc has technology, guidance, and over 150 years of experience to help you get there. ♪ >>>
it's law that just makes sense. humans -- sometimes life trips us up. and sometimes, we trip ourselves up, but that's okay. at liberty mutual insurance we can "untrip" you as you go through your life with personalized policies and discounts when you need them most. just call... and speak with a licensed representative about saving on your policy when you get married, move into a new house... [crash!] or add a car to your policy. don't forget to ask about saving up to 10% when you...
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look, ultimately the law is the law and not surprising, brooke, you have people on both sides as you mentioned and some people believe that it is appropriate, okay? however the american psychological association has come out and said, it is junk science, it can lead to depression, suicide, it is just not something we should be undertaking. not surprising, brooke, there is a lawsuit, what does the lawsuit do? it says, look, not so fast, let's impose an injunction upon the law that says let's halt it, stop it, stay it and have a debate on this issue. and what the debate should say is you're violating my rights. how? these are parents who have the right to decide how their kids are growing up. therefore, this law takes that right away from them and says the state will now determine what is appropriate and what is not appropriate. so not surprisingly, there are groups out there and there is a lawsuit in the mix which may very well stay this particular -- >> not just one. david pickup who spoke with me from narth said he too -- they too are filing a suit, so two suits. two suits into this
look, ultimately the law is the law and not surprising, brooke, you have people on both sides as you mentioned and some people believe that it is appropriate, okay? however the american psychological association has come out and said, it is junk science, it can lead to depression, suicide, it is just not something we should be undertaking. not surprising, brooke, there is a lawsuit, what does the lawsuit do? it says, look, not so fast, let's impose an injunction upon the law that says let's...
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after all he's picked a couple and taught constitutional law. he said over and over again for him this is all about what's in a judge's heart. when he nominated sonia sotomayor to the supreme court, president obama laid out his criteria for justices. chief among them empathy. >> it is experience that give a person common sense and touch and compassion and understanding of how the world works and how ordinary people live. and that is why it is a necessary ingredient in the kind of justice we need on the supreme court. >> reporter: it's a trait president obama probably wishes more justices shared when they decided citizens united, the case that largely removed independent corporate spending limits on federal political campaigns. he called out the high court during his 2010 state of the union address. >> with all due deference to separation of powers, last week the supreme court reversed a century of law that i believe will open the flood gates for special interests. >> reporter: four months later the president made sure to highlight similar themes
after all he's picked a couple and taught constitutional law. he said over and over again for him this is all about what's in a judge's heart. when he nominated sonia sotomayor to the supreme court, president obama laid out his criteria for justices. chief among them empathy. >> it is experience that give a person common sense and touch and compassion and understanding of how the world works and how ordinary people live. and that is why it is a necessary ingredient in the kind of justice...
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law. >>> dinner time means family time at the skillman household, from who is chopping to who's stirring. to who's sitting around the table and who soon won't. how hard is this for your family? >> not real sure. i don't think it's hit them yet. i really don't. >> reporter: a grandfather to three girls, his other title is master sergeant dan skillman, u.s. army reserves. he deploys to afghanistan in weeks, with his wife, master sergeant lola skillman and their oldest son, james, a sergeant. husband, wife, and son will be gone nine months as reserve support at kandahar. despite the 29 years that lola served, this will be her first time deployed to a war zone. are you scared at all? >> yes. some people say no, they're not scared, they're ready to go do this. but i think in the back of everybody's mind it is a little bit terrifying. >> reporter: at the skillman home where the unpaved road meets a montana big sky, they know about sacrifice for country. lola's father was awarded the purple heart
law. >>> dinner time means family time at the skillman household, from who is chopping to who's stirring. to who's sitting around the table and who soon won't. how hard is this for your family? >> not real sure. i don't think it's hit them yet. i really don't. >> reporter: a grandfather to three girls, his other title is master sergeant dan skillman, u.s. army reserves. he deploys to afghanistan in weeks, with his wife, master sergeant lola skillman and their oldest son,...
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laws the corporal discipline of children by their parents. now the bill redefines child abuse laws that calls any act of pain. the son of vp joe biden said the old law needed to be changed because it had been difficult to prosecute cases where a child was too young to speak, or otherwise nonverbal. criminal defense attorney holly hughes is here. okay, critics say it could go too far and be misused. how do you think a law like this will be interpreted in the courts? >> i think it is coming back. it will be challenged. it will not pass constitutional muster, what is called vague and over-broad. and anything you do, essential that causes pain. well, what happens when your child is about to run into the street and you snatch them back by the arm and that causes pain. have you suddenly -- are you on the hook for child abuse, are you going to be arrested for that? this is craziness. >> my parents would be life in prison. >> oh, my word, exactly, mine, too, mine too. i was just talking about that. productive members of society. you know, neither one
laws the corporal discipline of children by their parents. now the bill redefines child abuse laws that calls any act of pain. the son of vp joe biden said the old law needed to be changed because it had been difficult to prosecute cases where a child was too young to speak, or otherwise nonverbal. criminal defense attorney holly hughes is here. okay, critics say it could go too far and be misused. how do you think a law like this will be interpreted in the courts? >> i think it is coming...
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not for college, not for law school, and not to get hired for a job. i was listed in a directory as -- i listed myself as native american. i was listed there. it's part of who i am. >> do you consider yourself a minority? >> i consider myself as having a native american background. that's what i am. >> no one is questioning what her parents told her when she was younger. but when she was asked by the boston harold why is harvard touting her as a woman of color, she said she didn't know. then after five weeks of misleading the papers and the reporters, she said i self-reported. she's never answered why she did that. >> one notable line came when senator brown was interrupted when trying to explain why he voted against democrat-backed bills. >> she's misstating the facts. these are by democrats and republicans. if you're going to comment on my record, i would have at least -- excuse me. i'm not a student in your classroom. please let me respond, okay? thank you. >> okay. let's just stop there for a second. at the top of the show in our little teaser item
not for college, not for law school, and not to get hired for a job. i was listed in a directory as -- i listed myself as native american. i was listed there. it's part of who i am. >> do you consider yourself a minority? >> i consider myself as having a native american background. that's what i am. >> no one is questioning what her parents told her when she was younger. but when she was asked by the boston harold why is harvard touting her as a woman of color, she said she...
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the administration is telling companies to break the law. get this. the president is putting you -- yes, you -- on hook to pay the legal bills for the businesses violating the law. here's the facts. sequestration hits in three months. the reason, neither the president nor congress is doing their job to keep us from going off the fiscal cliff. defense contractors have to make cuts. by law, they must warn employees if their jobs are on the line, but the obama administration is now telling companies hold on, don't warn anyone yet. an obama administration memo says if a company gets sued for breaking the law, the labor department -- that means you -- will cover the legal bill. so is president obama pledging taxpayer money to push this back until after the election to give himself political cover? joining us is haley barbour. welcome, governor. why is he doing this. >> the law is clear, because the sequestration, companies are going to make layoffs, they have to give notice. the obama administration is telling, don't tell anybody you're going to get laid o
the administration is telling companies to break the law. get this. the president is putting you -- yes, you -- on hook to pay the legal bills for the businesses violating the law. here's the facts. sequestration hits in three months. the reason, neither the president nor congress is doing their job to keep us from going off the fiscal cliff. defense contractors have to make cuts. by law, they must warn employees if their jobs are on the line, but the obama administration is now telling...
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even know unicor pays its workers next to nothing doesn't mean it can't charge top dollar because the law requires federal agencies to buy unicor's products. so they can charge nearly five dollars more per uniform. now folks-- until recently, unicor has been legally allowed to fly only other government agencies but those restrictions are now lifting. so unicor is now offering its prison labor to the private sector. >> you can take advantage of unicor's unique capabilities. skilled workforce, nationwide locations, 24/7 operations, highly competitive pricing. the best kept secret in outsourcing. outsourcing with unicor can provide you with all the advantages of domestic contact centers at offshore prices. unicor, the secret is out. >> stephen: yes, the secret is out. and for all those who are worried about unemployed americans who will now have to compete against cheap prison labor, don't worry. you can apply for one of these great new unicor jobs by going to your local liquor store and submitting your application via shotgun. remember-- (applause) remember, folks, remember, folks, first im
even know unicor pays its workers next to nothing doesn't mean it can't charge top dollar because the law requires federal agencies to buy unicor's products. so they can charge nearly five dollars more per uniform. now folks-- until recently, unicor has been legally allowed to fly only other government agencies but those restrictions are now lifting. so unicor is now offering its prison labor to the private sector. >> you can take advantage of unicor's unique capabilities. skilled...
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it depends on the laws of any nation. all nation's laws are not equal. they differ. in most countries, one way or another, this is allowed under the laws but fundamentally, i do agree, certainly people must be allowed to express their own opinions freely, freedom is part of the essential rights of all nations. >> if that is -- >> no one has the right to take that away. >> if that is the case, why has the daughter of the former president of iran, why has she been imprisoned for protesting against your regime? >> in iran, there is only one regime, so perhaps they are protest against that and in iran, the judicial branch is not under the power of the government, they have their own laws and's what they follow. and we have no interference in that. the government has paved wait four the highest form of freedom of most people. you see people criticize, people sometimes trespass the border lines of proper as a president, i'm not middle of the people of iran, without drawing any borders, without drawing any reed red lines, we converse. >> right, but this isn't just any prote
it depends on the laws of any nation. all nation's laws are not equal. they differ. in most countries, one way or another, this is allowed under the laws but fundamentally, i do agree, certainly people must be allowed to express their own opinions freely, freedom is part of the essential rights of all nations. >> if that is -- >> no one has the right to take that away. >> if that is the case, why has the daughter of the former president of iran, why has she been imprisoned for...
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there is a law -- federal law when you get reconstruction money from the federal government called the stafford act. and basically, it says, when you get federal money, have you to give a 10% match. the local government's got to come up with 10%. every $10 the federal government comes up with, local government's got to give a dollar. now, here's the thing, when 9/11 happened in new york city... they waived the stafford act, said this is too serious a problem, we can't expect new york city to rebuild on its own -- forget that dollar you have to put in. we will -- here's $10. that was the right thing to do. whether hurricane andrew struck in florida, people said, look at this devastation! we don't expect to you come up with your own money, here! here's the money to rebuild. we won't wait for to you scratch it together because you are part of the american family. what is happening down in new orleans? where's your dollar? where's your stafford act money? makes no sense. tells me the bullet hasn't been taken out. [applause] tells me that somehow the people down in new orleans, they don't c
there is a law -- federal law when you get reconstruction money from the federal government called the stafford act. and basically, it says, when you get federal money, have you to give a 10% match. the local government's got to come up with 10%. every $10 the federal government comes up with, local government's got to give a dollar. now, here's the thing, when 9/11 happened in new york city... they waived the stafford act, said this is too serious a problem, we can't expect new york city to...
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oklahoma has this personhood law. so it is not a long shot at all that one state would go all the way and say, look, we are banning abortion because we think roe v wade will be overturned. if the majority really does change. if, say, ruth bader ginsburg is replaced by a conservative, i think a challenge to roe would come up pretty quickly, probably within a year. >> and normally someone nominates justices whether they're in their 40s or early 50s so they remain on the bench for maybe 30, 40 years. they have an enormous impact long after that president is gone. >> and that's become more and more part of the supreme court confirmation game. one of the stories i tell in "the oath" is president obama was torn between kagan and wood. one of the deciding factors was that kagan was 50 and diane wood was 60. that's going to be true whether obama or romney wins this election. >> jeffrey toobin, the author of "the oath," thanks for coming in. >> all right. >>> one of the best-selling vehicles in the united states is now getting
oklahoma has this personhood law. so it is not a long shot at all that one state would go all the way and say, look, we are banning abortion because we think roe v wade will be overturned. if the majority really does change. if, say, ruth bader ginsburg is replaced by a conservative, i think a challenge to roe would come up pretty quickly, probably within a year. >> and normally someone nominates justices whether they're in their 40s or early 50s so they remain on the bench for maybe 30,...